Egor:

I agree, KGBman.  In spite of all the criticism of Bush, the american left shares his most problematic qualities - and takes them to a whole new level.  The problem with this situation is that there is no dissent (unless you count our few remaining "thinkers" like Buchanan and Gingrich) so what we have is the monopoly on misinformation and propaganda  about Russia and Putin.

I just read gtSasha's post, Putin was given an opportunity to give examples, and he never takes them.  I don't understand why he has such a hard time making his case.  How about something saying something like this (this would be my speech )

"American people, by proxy of their governement officials and media consider Russia to be on the path to dictatorship.  At the same time, the same american people, again, by proxy of their governement officials and media, consider it an intrinsic human value to allow the people of a nation to decide on their leadership, on their internal affairs, and their threshold of personal freedoms the consequences of which that society is willing to accept.  America itself is in this battle - for example, with the constant civil liberties scandals and government overstepping its bounds.  However, it is the American people who will determine the line between their freedom versus other considerations (security, law and order, etc).  In these decisions, the American people take into consideration their intrinsic national/cultural values and ideals, as well as the quality of life and personal environment the society wants to live in.

By the same token, it will be the Russian people, and no one else, with their intrinsic values and the liberty to choose their leadership and government style, who ultimately decide on this course.  In fact, unlike the american governemnt which has lost its democratic support yet continues to expand its influence over its population who no longer supports that expansion, in Russia the approval rating of our "course", in all polls conducted by either Russian, western, and other independent enteties, shows a vast majority has used their liberty to make their choices.  That liberty is the ultimate freedom for which western civilization previously stood and has abandoned in favor of supporting convenient regimes, even repressive dictatorships, yet criticizing nations with leaderships supported by their populations."

That's basically Russia's case in a nutshell.. But they don't know how to talk to you, wierd double-talking hypocritical westerners,  in order to explain it :) 

 

 

 

 

 

Dude, you need to apply for Putin speach writer. You'll make huge money and US maybe, just maybe, will actualy listen !!!!!!!

This is great - and I mean it.  You have a talent.

 

GT - there is no sectret cabal , but it is a documented and proven fact that US and West Europe give finance, support and help many different organizations in Russia and outside, which work against russian interests and support opposition.

What would you say if Russia would bankroll, let's say green party in US ?

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

mkgilstrap:

Why are our bases still there?  Why is ANY NATO base still active. (those arrayed against the former Soviet Union)  The Europeans still feel threatened. . . What is your opinion 412.

Because it is convenient.  All flights to Iraq, are conducted through Germany, and the Marines stationed there went into rotation first.  Same with Afghanistan.  Same with B & H.  Same with Somalia.  Same with Kosovo.
The US and NATO pretty much wrote off Russia as a military power until recently.
The only threat to Europe that Russia poses today, is the power to shut off that pipe that pumps gas and oil to the West.

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Exactly, Europe afraid that we cut the pipe...   As one of West leaders said " It's unfair that one country has so many resourses" ..... 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Btw, I just got the magazine in the mail and the picture is even worse than it looks on the screen. Wow, I almost feel bad for him. Almost.

Then again, they did the same thing to Hillary when covering her campaign. Interestingly enough, while her cover picture (and all the ones accompanying the article) was absolutely horrendous and ridiculous, the one they used for Obama was all about power, warmth, and humanity (translation: he had the facial expression of a blissfully happy idiot man, the shot was taken from below to emphasize power, etc.) In other words, they don't even try to hide their bias.

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KGBMan:

Exactly, Europe afraid that we cut the pipe...   As one of West leaders said " It's unfair that one country has so many resourses" ..... 

I wonder who said that...  Do you have a link to an article?  If it is one of the current presidential candidates I will know not to vote for this person.

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Sasha

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Work is a matter of taste. If you don't work you don't taste.

So far, only this:

http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2007/11/albright_and_the_consciously_c.htm

 

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I don;t recall who said it exactly...  but there were several similar ... Тетчер said something about Russia only needs to have about 30 million to serve West energy needs....

Bush about a year ago was complaining about Russian unfair energy export practices (I think we even had a topic on the that subject).....

It's everywhere... 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Возвращаясь к топику - какой же всетаки Путин молодец - цитата :

http://www.kremlin.ru/text/appears/2007/06/135323.shtml

в конце:

Что же касается каких-то проблемных страниц в нашей истории – да, они были. Так они были в истории любого государства! И у нас их было меньше, чем у некоторых других. И у нас они не были такими ужасными, как у некоторых других. Да, у нас были страшные страницы: давайте вспомним события начиная с 1937 года, давайте не будем об этом забывать. Но и в других странах было не менее, пострашнее еще было. Во всяком случае, мы не применяли ядерного оружия в отношении гражданского населения. Мы не поливали химикатами тысячи километров и не сбрасывали на маленькую страну в семь раз больше бомб, чем за всю Великую Отечественную [войну], как это было во Вьетнаме, допустим. У нас не было других черных страниц, таких как нацизм, например.

Да мало ли чего было в истории каждого государства и каждого народа! И нельзя позволить, чтобы нам навязывали чувство вины, – о себе пускай подумают. Но мы для себя должны не забывать об этом – и мы не будем об этом забывать. Но при всем при том мы, конечно, будем исходить из того, что важнейшим принципом и способом организации нашего государства и общества, конечно, будет ориентация на нужды, на запросы гражданина, на его развитие, на его защиту. Демократия и будет способом организации нашего общества и государства.
 

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

http://cannonballband.com/

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What the 'West' and the 'Anglo Saxon' media dislike about Putin is that he had the kahunas to kick gangster toads like Berezovsky in the butt, and lock up his cousin Chordokovsky. Putin will always have to look over his shoulder because of that. If only for the future protection of himself and his family he must remain near the top of the Russian government. 

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I think the recent actions of Putin to sell anti-missle defense systems to Iran (a threat to Eurpoe by ANY standards)  See recent UN resolutions for proof....   And also the testing of a new ICBM Christmas day didn't help things either....  considering the fact it was a MIRV    I realize I may be actually proving my case that Putin is threatening Europe, however unpleasant this fact may be to some of you.......

 

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

Mr. Gilstrap, consider this:

• Iran is a democratic state.  If the government is elected by the people, that's exactly what it means, right?  Therefore, it has a right to protect itself, especially in light of latest threats against it by the US and Israel.
• The US has a crapload of ICBMs, and it is threatening everyone except their allies.  Should Russia be able to counter that threat?
  

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mkgilstrap:

I think the recent actions of Putin to sell anti-missle defense systems to Iran (a threat to Eurpoe by ANY standards) 

 

How is an air defense system a threat to Europe ??

It's not even an anti-missile system by design, but can be used in that role as well..... 

 
See recent UN resolutions for proof....

There is no restrictions on selling any kind of weapon systems to Iran. Specifically defensive systems
 

   And also the testing of a new ICBM Christmas day didn't help things either....  considering the fact it was a MIRV    I realize I may be actually proving my case that Putin is threatening Europe, however unpleasant this fact may be to some of you.......

 

Russia celebrates Christmas during different time, 12/25 is just another work day overthere. Would you consider same testing done regularly by US a threat to Russia ? 

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons continues, recent reports notwithstanding.  If Iran continues to pursue, openly or clandestinely, the development of nuclear weapons, if their current government is still in powere when this happens, they will have to be stopped by force.  No questions asked.  Everybody knows this.  Some care, some don't.  New air defenses will simply make the job of destroying Iranian nuclear capability harder.  But I'm sure those who are selling those weapons don't care.  America didn't care either when we did this, and we paid in blood against our own weapon systems sometimes.  This isn't a very smart policy.  But it's money to Russia.  I hope it isn't their own pilots who are killed trying to stop Iran.

 

We were earlier having a discussion about why Europe feels threatened by Putin.  Developing an ICBM is to my mind certainly a threat, especially an ICBM with a range of only 4500 miles, since an ICBM with that range primarily threatens European targets.   And since the development of this missle has been going on for years, hence, the need for an anti missle shield in Eastern Europe to knock the little buggers out of the sky before they impact on European targets.   Cold War.... Remember it..   I think he is starting another Cold War.   We build something, you build something bigger.  You build another one, we build another one.  You build something new, we build something to counter it.  Gotta end somewhere.  America is not imperialistic.  only a fool believes that.

 

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

As to Iran's nuclear hopes: Mr. Gilstrap, of course you and your president know these things better than CIA, NSA, FSB and MI5.  Keep up the outstanding intelligence work.
The range of the tested missiles is 9200 km, during the test they covered 8900 km.  You do the math.

America's policy in the past 100 years shows its intentions.  Iposted this list before, but apparently you haven't seen it.  I am not implying that all these missions dihonarable, but would you care to compile a list like that for Russia?

COUNTRY OR STATE	Dates of intervention	Forces	Comments
SOUTH DAKOTA	1890 (-?)	Troops	300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA	1890	Troops	Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE	1891	Troops	Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI	1891	Troops	Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO	1892	Troops	Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII	1893 (-?)	Naval, troops	Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO	1894	Troops	Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA	1894	Troops	Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA	1894-95	Naval, troops	Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA	1894-96	Troops	Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA	1895	Troops, naval	Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA	1896	Troops	Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA	1898-1900	Troops	Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES	1898-1910 (-?)	Naval, troops	Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA	1898-1902 (-?)	Naval, troops	Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO	1898 (-?)	Naval, troops	Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM	1898 (-?)	Naval, troops	Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA	1898 (-?)	Troops	Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA	1898	Troops	Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA	1899 (-?)	Troops	Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA	1899	Troops	Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO	1899-1901	Troops	Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA	1901	Troops	Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA	1901-14	Naval, troops	Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
HONDURAS	1903	Troops	Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC	1903-04	Troops	U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA	1904-05	Troops	Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA	1906-09	Troops	Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA	1907	Troops	"Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS	1907	Troops	Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA	1908	Troops	Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA	1910	Troops	Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS	1911	Troops	U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA	1911-41	Naval, troops	Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA	1912	Troops	U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA	1912	Troops	Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS	1912	Troops	Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA	1912-33	Troops, bombing	10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO	1913	Naval	Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC	1914	Naval	Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO	1914	Troops	Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO	1914-18	Naval, troops	Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI	1914-34	Troops, bombing	19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC	1916-24	Troops	8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA	1917-33	Troops	Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I	1917-18	Naval, troops	Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA	1918-22	Naval, troops	Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA	1918-20	Troops	"Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS	1919	Troops	Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA	1919	Troops/Marines	intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA	1920	Troops	2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA	1920-21	Troops, bombing	Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY	1922	Troops	Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA	1922-27	Naval, troops	Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS	1924-25	Troops	Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA	1925	Troops	Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA	1927-34	Troops	Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR	1932	Naval	Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC	1932	Troops	Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II	1941-45	Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear	Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
DETROIT	1943	Troops	Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN	1946	Nuclear threat	Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA	1946	Nuclear threat, naval	Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY	1947	Nuclear threat	Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE	1947-49	Command operation	U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY	1948	Nuclear Threat	Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA	1948-49	Troops/Marines	evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES	1948-54	Command operation	CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO	1950	Command operation	Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA	1951-53 (-?)	Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats	U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN	1953	Command Operation	CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM	1954	Nuclear threat	French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA	1954	Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat	CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT	1956	Nuclear threat, troops	Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON	l958	Troops, naval	Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ	1958	Nuclear threat	Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA	l958	Nuclear threat	China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA	1958	Troops	Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM	l960-75	Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats	Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
CUBA	l961	Command operation	CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY	l961	Nuclear threat	Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
LAOS	1962	Command operation	Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA	l962	Nuclear threat, naval	Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
IRAQ	1963	Command operation	CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
PANAMA	l964	Troops	Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA	l965	Command operation	Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC	1965-66	Troops, bombing	Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA	l966-67	Command operation	Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT	l967	Troops	Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES	l968	Troops	After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA	l969-75	Bombing, troops, naval	Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN	l970	Command operation	U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS	l971-73	Command operation, bombing	U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA	l973	Command operation	Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST	1973	Nuclear threat	World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE	1973	Command operation	CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA	l975	Troops, bombing	Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA	l976-92	Command operation	CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN	l980	Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing	Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA	l981	Naval jets	Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR	l981-92	Command operation, troops	Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA	l981-90	Command operation, naval	CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON	l982-84	Naval, bombing, troops	Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA	l983-84	Troops, bombing	Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS	l983-89	Troops	Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN	l984	Jets	Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA	l986	Bombing, naval	Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA	1986	Troops	Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN	l987-88	Naval, bombing	US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA	1989	Naval jets	Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS	1989	Troops	St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES	1989	Jets	Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA	1989 (-?)	Troops, bombing	Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA	1990	Troops	Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA	1990-91	Troops, jets	Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ	1990-?	Bombing, troops, naval	Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT	1991	Naval, bombing, troops	Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES	1992	Troops	Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA	1992-94	Troops, naval, bombing	U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA	1992-94	Naval	NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA	1993-?	Jets, bombing	No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI	1994	Troops, naval	Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO)	1996-97	Troops	Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA	1997	Troops	Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA	1997	Troops	Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN	1998	Missiles	Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN	1998	Missiles	Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ	1998-?	Bombing, Missiles	Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA	1999	Bombing, Missiles	Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN	2000	Naval	USS Cole, docked in Aden, bombed.
MACEDONIA	2001	Troops	NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES	2001	Jets, naval	Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN	2001-?	Troops, bombing, missiles	Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency.
YEMEN	2002	Missiles	Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES	2002-?	Troops, naval	Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into US combat missions in Sulu Archipelago next to Mindanao.
COLOMBIA	2003-?	Troops	US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ	2003-?	Troops, naval, bombing, missiles	Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. Clashes on border with Syria.
LIBERIA	2003	Troops	Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.
HAITI	2004-05	Troops, naval	Marines land after rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN	2005-?	Missiles, covert operation	CIA airstrikes on Al Qaeda refuge villages kill civilians
SOMALIA	2007	Missiles, naval	AC-130 strikes; naval blockade and Cruise missile attacks against Islamist rebels

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